E-bike general and technical questions for start-up - Endless Sphere

I will begin with a bit of my back story. I've been living in a small town the better part of my life where there's just 40k+ people living. I have always considered myself driven and had a bunch of different jobs but I always wanted to start something of my own.

Now I got an idea where I plan to make regular bikes into e-bikes, since I feel there is a need for it around here. There's a lot of long commutes and most of the town lives outside of the city. but I had some questions to begin with:

1. Is it possible to make any bike into an e-bike?
2. I find a lot of different setups but what setup is the most durable and cost efficient one?
3. Is there any brand that offers cheap and lasting set-ups? Maybe one that does so for different bike sizes?

I'm still working on the business model but I'd be really glad to hear anything you guys have to add, all comments, pointers and critique you got would be really appreciated. If it's something you think I haven't thought about then please let me know I'm not going to address your 3 questions because they are subjective and you will get a different answer from from every ëxpert" here."

The real question is, can you make a living doing this, and I think the answer to that, is probably not.

Here's a few things to consider";

To achieve any sort of profit margin, you will need to be able to buy bikes, motor kits, batteries, etc. at a deep discount, so I guess that would be Alibaba.
Do you have the money to buy quantities? Would you be comfortable buying from them? Are you willing to spend big $$$ on inventory only to find that things don't work out and you will be stuck with a basement of Ebike parts?

How would you market the finished product? Brick and mortor store or Craigslist?
Both are problematic. For a store, beside rent and utilities, you will need a city business license and have to pay whatever way the city can get money out of you. Possibly insurance of some sort too.
How will your neighboors feel about your storing Lithium batteries.
Will you advertise? Advertising is very expensive.

Concerning Craigslist, well, here we would have to talk about human nature a bit.
You sound young, but at any age, one never knows the buying public until you are selling something.
In a nutshell, people will waste your time. Oh, they will öoh and aah" and tell you how neat the bike is, but when it comes time to reach into the back pocket, well....
They will try and talk you down in price. They will want to horse trade. And do you want a continuing stream of people coming to your house(or your folk's house)?
Will you offer a warrenty? people will expect it and more than a few will take that to mean that you will fix it free forever.

A town of 40K may sound like a lot of people, but I live in a city of a million, and I have seen maybe three Ebikes in the last year and those were ready built.
And speaking of ready built, how many people will look at your bikes, then go order something on-line? More than a few, I would wager.

It's not my intent to "rain on your parade", but I'm speaking from experience. Like you, I wanted to go it alone doing something that I loved. So, in I opened a motor scooter shop. At that time, little Japanese scooters were all the rage. I couldn't get a dealer's license because the bond was more than I could scrape together, so I did repairs and accessories. My customers were university students and they didn't have any money. The only money I ever made was from "flipping" titles and selling used parts.

Ok, If I haven't totally discourged you, here is what I would recommend;
Start small and build a couple bikes at your house and try to sell them on Craigslist. I think you will find that it's more trouble than it's worth.
But you will fall in love with Ebikes, of that I'm sure. But like so much in life, better to make that your hobby and make a living doing something of which you will be sure to be financially rewarded.
Whatever you do, good luck.

entretooth said: 1. Is it possible to make any bike into an e-bike?
2. I find a lot of different setups but what setup is the most durable and cost efficient one?
3. Is there any brand that offers cheap and lasting set-ups? Maybe one that does so for different bike sizes?

I'm still working on the business model but I'd be really glad to hear anything you guys have to add, all comments, pointers and critique you got would be really appreciated. If it's something you think I haven't thought about then please let me know

1. Not every bike can be converted, but most can. There are so many details to this question, however, that a full answer of what works and what doesn't could fill several volumes of books. In very general terms, most 7 to 21 speed, non suspension mountain style bikes are easy to convert. The Trek 800 is a good example of an "Ideal" generic donor bike
2. None. there are a lot of setups because none are perfect fr every situation. Just like there are no "Perfect automobiles", because everyone has different needs and expectations, there are no perfect Ebikes. Every person's situation will be unique, and no setup can meet everyone's needs.
3. Chinese business models work much different than the US. if you want to make money, you're going to need to go to the manufacturer. they may sell you the exact same parts as another "brand" uses, or in some cases many "brands" use.
to put it in Americanized standards, Chinese manufacturing is like Chrysler decides to stop selling cars. instead they make a lot of generic cars with swappable body shells. Both Ford and Chevy decide to stop making cars, and instead they both buy cars from Chrysler, having Chrysler add their names and a few custom parts. But both Ford and Chevy are still in fierce competition with each other. And to confuse it even more, Chrysler has gotten so big doing this, they dictate to Ford and Chevy what cars they will get, changing models and parts any time they please. So Ford introduces a line of cars calling it the Ford Fux0r. This month it's a hot hatch back. Next month it's last year's pickup truck. 3 months from now it will be a wheezy diesel sedan that's only available in brown, beige, or electric pink. a month later it's a convertible muscle car, all being sold as Ford Fux0rs.
Chevy has to go through the Same thing. They call theirs the Chevy Rawxtar, and even though the vehicle is clearly different every month, they keep selling it by quoting the original specs from the first car they took delivery of. So that 2 door 3/4 pickup truck with a 7 liter V8 is being sold as a 5 door hatchback economy car that gets 47mpg.
And that's the Chinese way of doing business. If you want to make it in the Ebike business, you'll have to learn to adapt to it, and be able to adapt it to western consumers.


Before you get too far into this idea, I'd suggest converting a couple bikes for your self. See first hand what the bikes are capable of. Good ones are very good. Cheap ones are very bad. usually. Write them off as research.
Also, If you aren't a bicycle mechanic, hire yourself a good mechanic as a consultant. motors put many times more stress on a bike than they were designed for. They will break and you will be doing warranty work. Good mechanic skills, or having access to a good mechanic will be the difference between making it and going under.

motomech said: I'm not going to address your 3 questions because they are subjective and you will get a different answer from from every ëxpert" here."

Maybe he's doing research for a book.

motomech said: The real question is, can you make a living doing this, and I think the answer to that, is probably not.

First question: Is this a "Retirement Job." If you don't HAVE to make a living. . . . Or are you in agriculture, part of the year it being parttime, etc.?

Can you or can't you convert any bike? YES. Do you WANT to? Are people REALLY going to be happy with it? Are you hoping that people will pay you to convert whatever bike they have? They'll probably want it fixed at the same time.

". . . .the most durable and cost efficient . . . ?" Enduring WHAT? How is the cost efficiency established? It's not cost efficient to put a huge battery on if they won't ride half that far, or a big motor to haul a load up hill if they won't. You have to suit the need.

That cheap and lasting setups question makes me think you're not ready for this business. What you're saying is you want the Chinese equipment they ACCIDENTALLY built well.

I was born in a town of a population of 23,000, with other towns not so far away, but my Mother had been making 15-20 mile drives to buy clothes for her kids. It's now approaching 200,000, touching one around 400,000, others at or near 100,000. So I thought I'd have memories when I saw my Mother's new town, popluation 10,000 in a county of 40,000, which she lives 15 miles from the city limits of. It's a different world, now. And it continues to change, Mom's town is more and more like the big city every time I go to visit.

I can't say it's a safe trip riding into town from Mom's house. Part of it narrow country roads with blind turns, part of it highway with fast moving cars and 18 wheelers. A lot of people wouldn't like the idea of riding into town.

Around town, I suppose there's a few of the elderly riding 3 wheelers just like everywhere else, some might want a motor on theirs. But they don't even have a bike shop there, unless you count WalMart.

I'll give you a business model. Buy premade bikes, as people said. Sell on eBay. Hang a few flyers around so people go to look at your eBay store, but don't get your face identified with it. If you make money you'll have far more sales away from your small town than you will at home.

Location and timing seem to be the greatest influences in determining if you will get a discount on a new eBike.

Personally, I first found the eBike(s) that I wanted, then shopped local places for the best deal:

Ebike #1 (A2B metro): 25% discount. Dealer needed to move inventory, and had 5 expensive eBikes taking up space on his showroom floor.

Ebike #2 (Stromer Elite): 60% discount. Dealer bought out a bankrupt bike dealer and was clearing out the old inventory of 7 Stromers and many fake Italian cf road bikes. I threw out a ridiculous number and was first in the door, so they took it.

Both bikes were (at the time) high quality, expensive eBikes. Full warranty on both.

I wouldn't buy an eBike on line, due to the nature of the inevitable Warranty work.. Maybe today they are reliable enough so that an online purchase wouldn't be a gamble.

The best time imo to buy an eBike is the same as for any other bike: During model year closeouts, fall/winter. I just love the surveys on this forum. Sample sizes are so small as to render any results totally useless for statistical purposes. I am in favor of always negotiating just as long as you never ask what the dealer paid for the product. Dealer pricing from vendors is simply none of the consumers business. It is extremely unethical for the consumer to determine what margin the dealer deserves.

I want a good deal (sometimes) and am willing to shop. Most of the time I shop to determine ASP (average selling price) which is a better indicator of pricing fairness. In any market, as distribution grows, the ability to sell for msrp lessens. There are legal restrictions some states honor for "advertised" pricing. However, federal fair trade laws, prohibit manufacturers from controlling the actual selling price.

Most things can be negotiated. This includes things you may not think of including tax bills, doctor and hospital charges, and mortgages. I am not sure the word negotiate is correct. Most times a consumer can obtain better pricing simply by asking.

I just love the surveys on this forum. Sample sizes are so small as to render any results totally useless for statistical purposes. I am in favor of always negotiating just as long as you never ask what the dealer paid for the product. Dealer pricing from vendors is simply none of the consumers business. It is extremely unethical for the consumer to determine what margin the dealer deserves.

I want a good deal (sometimes) and am willing to shop. Most of the time I shop to determine ASP (average selling price) which is a better indicator of pricing fairness. In any market, as distribution grows, the ability to sell for msrp lessens. There are legal restrictions some states honor for "advertised" pricing. However, federal fair trade laws, prohibit manufacturers from controlling the actual selling price.

Most things can be negotiated. This includes things you may not think of including tax bills, doctor and hospital charges, and mortgages. I am not sure the word negotiate is correct. Most times a consumer can obtain better pricing simply by asking.

Why is it "unethical" for the consumer know the wholesale price of a product? That seems like an arbitrary and unsubstantiated claim to me.

It certainly is the business of a bike dealer to know what their margin/markup is, and they have no need to inform anyone about wholesale pricing and can politely decline, but I don't see why it would be unethical to inquire. If the consumer wants a deal that's too good to be true, the dealer has the right to decline their offer, and that's that. The consumer will only walk away with a bike if they come to a deal that they both can live with.

Why is it "unethical" for the consumer know the wholesale price of a product? That seems like an arbitrary and unsubstantiated claim to me.

It certainly is the business of a bike dealer to know what their margin/markup is, and they have no need to inform anyone about wholesale pricing and can politely decline, but I don't see why it would be unethical to inquire. If the consumer wants a deal that's too good to be true, the dealer has the right to decline their offer, and that's that. The consumer will only walk away with a bike if they come to a deal that they both can live with.

What a dealer pays for a product is unimportant. What a consumer pays for a product is important. COGS is part of what we might call proprietary business practices. If you consider asking someone to disclose their retail trade secrets an ethical inquiry then you exhibit utter lack of respect for best business practices.

Let me give you a simple example. Suppose you purchased a product for $100 that was the best possible competitive price you could find, used the product, and was absolutely thrilled with its performance. After the purchase you learn that the product cost $2.67 to make. Would you still consider your purchase a good deal? Would you complain about how much the seller made in profits? Would you return the product or ask for a lower price?

The only thing that should matter to you is perceived value of the purchase.

What a dealer pays for a product is unimportant. What a consumer pays for a product is important. COGS is part of what we might call proprietary business practices. If you consider asking someone to disclose their retail trade secrets an ethical inquiry then you exhibit utter lack of respect for best business practices.

Let me give you a simple example. Suppose you purchased a product for $100 that was the best possible competitive price you could find, used the product, and was absolutely thrilled with its performance. After the purchase you learn that the product cost $2.67 to make. Would you still consider your purchase a good deal? Would you complain about how much the seller made in profits? Would you return the product or ask for a lower price?

The only thing that should matter to you is perceived value of the purchase.

We're not talking $100 goods here either though. I'd liken it closest to the automobile industry. Regardless I agree I wouldn't expect a dealer to provide me with details of their invoicing and bottom line, however much of that is semi-available for those willing to look. In the end it is about the consumer's willingness to pay. Some may just walk in and pay what the sticker says - that is largely how we are taught that things work. When it comes to big ticket items, that is rarely the case - a deal is always there to be struck for those who are willing to ask (or walk away).

I do think it hurts this relatively small segment that you never see advertised sales, and I think that is what most are trying to get at. If one person can negotiate or find a deal lets say for $1,800 on a $2,500 bike, or $2,500 for a $3,500 bike, then kudos to them. What about people who walk into a shop, see the high prices and decide, because of those prices, the bikes aren't worth the cost? If there is never a sale or discount, those are sales lost. I suppose from the industry perspective it is difficult to attempt to move volume at lower prices when the market really is such a small segment, especially here in the US right now.

We're not talking $100 goods here either though. I'd liken it closest to the automobile industry. Regardless I agree I wouldn't expect a dealer to provide me with details of their invoicing and bottom line, however much of that is semi-available for those willing to look. In the end it is about the consumer's willingness to pay. Some may just walk in and pay what the sticker says - that is largely how we are taught that things work. When it comes to big ticket items, that is rarely the case - a deal is always there to be struck for those who are willing to ask (or walk away).

I do think it hurts this relatively small segment that you never see advertised sales, and I think that is what most are trying to get at. If one person can negotiate or find a deal lets say for $1,800 on a $2,500 bike, or $2,500 for a $3,500 bike, then kudos to them. What about people who walk into a shop, see the high prices and decide, because of those prices, the bikes aren't worth the cost? If there is never a sale or discount, those are sales lost. I suppose from the industry perspective it is difficult to attempt to move volume at lower prices when the market really is such a small segment, especially here in the US right now.

Let me put it another way. If there is no strongly perceived value/need, then a lower price is simply not a motivator. A personal example: I come from the high tech industry and am technically astute. Right or wrong I do not like IOS as a mobile operating system. If you lowered the price of an iphone 6+ to $10 I would not buy it as its core functionality does not suite my particular needs.

If the ebike solves a perceived problem then price becomes a secondary consideration. I believe that things like price, wow, fast, cool, pretty, fun et. al. are not strong purchase motivators. When I called 100 health and wellness managers in the Sf Bay area I pitched one message and only one message: Leave the car at home. It resonated 'VERY strongly, strongly enough that 100% of them were amenable to allowing me to demo and sell ebikes on their corporate campus. I was at a farmers market helping a local dealer sell ebikes. We had 30 or 40 folks who were really interested. All of the interested parties were not cyclists in the traditional sense but had (for the most part) medical issues that affected their mobility. My point is that when a product is properly positioned to solve a real or perceived problem price becomes a tiny issue.

What a dealer pays for a product is unimportant. What a consumer pays for a product is important. COGS is part of what we might call proprietary business practices. If you consider asking someone to disclose their retail trade secrets an ethical inquiry then you exhibit utter lack of respect for best business practices.

Let me give you a simple example. Suppose you purchased a product for $100 that was the best possible competitive price you could find, used the product, and was absolutely thrilled with its performance. After the purchase you learn that the product cost $2.67 to make. Would you still consider your purchase a good deal? Would you complain about how much the seller made in profits? Would you return the product or ask for a lower price?

The only thing that should matter to you is perceived value of the purchase.

All this philosophizing. That's nice, but I care about every dollar I spend, as I have to earn it first.

Darn right I'm angry to be charged $100.00 for a $2.67 item. That's why I dislike my broadband cable company so much!

Luckily people don't have to pay retail prices for e-bikes...

The question doesn't really apply where I live. Everybody wants an e-bike. But they're sold everywhere too. So how far is your local dealer willing to go to get your business? In a 50 mile radius there are no less than 40 places where I can buy an e-bike. And sooner or later these shops will want to get rid of their inventory. So if it's in stock, just propose a price. I know about a dozen people who own e-bikes. None have paid close to the suggested retail price.

JayVee: You are in a much more mature and normalized market in Switzerland. It will happen in North America but we are probably 10-20 years behind Europe in terms of market maturity. I am still amazed that people think they are entitled to know what a dealer pays for a product and, even more galling, how much profit margin they believe is appropriate for the dealer. Thankfully most consumers don't care about such nonsense and only care that their purchase price was competitive and that they are pleased with delivered benefits.

I am still amazed that people think they are entitled to know what a dealer pays for a product and, even more galling, how much profit margin they believe is appropriate for the dealer. Thankfully most consumers don't care about such nonsense and only care that their purchase price was competitive and that they are pleased with delivered benefits.

It seems like you've spent too much time studying business management and too little time studying human psychology! ;-)

You know, the auto market has proven that consumers want to know the invoice price of a car. Car dealers have adapted to this reality and will knowingly tell the consumer what they paid for the car in order to gain the consumer's trust and hence their business. Car dealers now get volume bonuses from manufacturers which ultimately reduce their cost to below invoice price and consequently help them book healthier profits while still adhering to the demands of consumers. What's wrong with a system like this for ebikes? I actually believe it's already going on, though the evidence I have is more circumstantial and I don't have enough data points to prove it.

Anyways, the determination you're making regarding the morality of a consumer wanting to know the invoice/wholesale price of an item is entirely subjective. You're entitled to your opinion, and I mine. We can agree to disagree. And I don't think anyone said that consumers should feel entitled to know the wholesale price of a product, but rather that they are simply curious and want to know, because knowing how much a product costs wholesale can inform consumer's determination of how to value a product (it's just another data point that they can use in addition to your preferred 'perceived value' method). Consumers weigh many things in their heads when it comes to coming up with a price that they're comfortable paying. That's simply how consumers behave, and it's okay. There's no need to bash them for it or call them immoral. I do not believe I know the true cost what dealer pays for his car. and even less what his total costs are. I search and do all I can but they are a professional and i am not. I know there is always someone smarter , faster o, bigger , paid less, paid more or whatever "more" more than i no matter what. I can search the best price paid by the consumer better than I can say what the dealer paid for the car....and i dont believe everything that i read about what they said they paid , some feel they got ripped and post less or feel they must pay the least and just lie so they can feel better, fudge factor

It is not my right but i want all info i can gather so i can get the best deal. You make offer , if they like it you have deal they dont go tot he next place and raise it $10 see if that makes and so on I advise negotiating strongly or buying from a discounter unless your well off. Ebike depreciate by at least 30 percent immediately out the door . Batteries are extremely expensive ware out and have limited second hand value. If I earn 50,000 a year and you earn 1,000,000 don't waste your time negotiating. However I should given the much higher value a dollar will have in my world and the extremely high opportunity cost that I would be subjected to. Personally, I don't care about the actual price to the dealer, just getting the best deal myself. If I knew the margin on every item I bought would I still shop.... If you knew how much waste there is in government would you still pay taxes... Anyway, there are huge differences in prices from dealer to dealer No way I would own two Ebikes if I had purchased at retail. Having bought four Ebikes already I strongly advise doing some research. You can save hundreds to thousands on one purchase. Use the money to get a second battery.